Freeconomy Blog
Sat
30 May
I just don't really care...
I was talking the other day with someone I'd just met over some dinner, and they asked me why I lived without money, only ate organic, local vegan food and didn't use fossil fuels and so on.
So I spoke about the philosophy behind what I do and the reasons I live this way – the environmental destruction, the suffering to human and non-human animals, the agendas behind the wars we wage, the social and cultural effects of our purchases on the people we can't see – I think the poor guy regretted asking.
But we both spoke in depth about it, and the guy agreed with the whole theory. But at the end of it all he just said - “To be honest mate, I just don't really care enough to do anything about it”.
I find that really challenging.
What I would really find useful to know is this - how do you best respond to someone who, knowing all the facts and is aware of the destruction and suffering that results from their purchases, says they just don't really care?
Answers on a commentcard below...
THE FREECONOMY BLOG is written by Mark Boyle, founder of the Freeconomy Community.
Comment on this Post:
Ana comments ...
Perhaps It was too overwhelming for them, it can be threatening and scary, feeling of guilt, suddenly asking them (indirectly) to drop everything which has given them a meaning to their comfy lives. It much easier to think that you are a bit of extreme case, so avoiding to face his/her own demons.
Think for a moment, what would happen if all people in Britain suddenly decide to live like you, probably will be chaotic, but nice subject for new movie? ; )
I think the best is to teach by being the example (probably how you're living your life now) , it takes longer to achieve but it's more effective, people doesn't like to be preached about, we all like our freedom of choice.
Good side by the way, I really enjoy it!
Cheese comments ...
Certainly the thing im struggling with is the enormity of it all. Before i met you and had a very simalar, albeit more drawn out conversation with you i had no idea of the impact my lifestyle was having.
So my solution is simple, baby steps, im doing what i can to alter my lifestyle slowly. Riding my bike where i can instead of driving, choosing organic and fairtrade whenever i can afford it instead of the factory farmed 'value' alternative. Im practically vegetarian now too, barely ever eating meat. Despite all these changes in my lifestyle, i still dont think i'll ever go to the extremes that you do.
It all comes back to what we've talked about, people are comfortable but not happy, and change is scary and makes them uncomfortable. What your doing is pre-empting an inevitable change in society that will have to happen at some point, but until people are forced to make a change they wont, because it takes them out of their comfort zone.
its a complete paradox, but the way i see it, the more skills you have to prepare you for the inevitable day, that will be in our lifetime; when the oil runs out, the more equipped you will be to survive and re-establish a comfort zone. In your case Mark, thats no difference at all, for some people it will be a real shock to the system.
burntsun comments ...
Well, I think you do just have to accept that. Maybe you can inspire and excite others by what you do, but at the end of the day, you're doing what you're for your own reasons and that's personal.
I've come to this frame of mind after many years trying to convince others to change their attitude towards the environment. And in the end, all it made me was very exasperated and disappointed. What a huge amount of spent energy!
If you probe this guy's response a bit deeper, you might find out that he does care more than he thinks. Does he dump his rubbish in his garden? Does he drop litter in his local park? My optimistic view is that everybody cares to some degree and that everybody draws a line between convenience and commitment somewhere. The only thing that's different between you and him (and me) is where that line is.
Mark comments ...
Ana - thanks for that. If everyone moved 100% to this way of life tomorrow there would be chaos, you're correct. But the same would happen if everyone changed to any new system. This concept is about transition, and it requires the innovators and early adopters (the environmentalists, activists etc) to start moving towards it now - today.
Also - anyone who understands Gaia theory and climate change (outside a Guardian and Times filtered version of it) realises that chaos is a guarantee unless we all take responsibility and act immediately anyway.
Cheese - another very good comment. I agree and disagree with baby steps. I think that is what people are going to do and it is a definite move in the right direction. But I agree with Lovelock in that I am not sure how much time we have left on this planet. If a bomb was about to go off in the carpark, would you take baby steps, or run as fast as you can?
burntsun - great point. I don't know him well but yes some of his actions say he actually does care about some things without doubt.
One point though - none of our choices are personal. We are all interdependent. All of our decisions effect others and other things. If we seen a man raping a woman down some alleyway, we wouldn't say that was a personal choice. It effects at least the woman, and terribly at that. So we'd stop him - I hope anyway.
But when man rapes and assualts the planet and every other species, other than man, on it, its personal choice.
For example - if I see a man inflicting extreme cruelty on an animal (or paying someone else to do it), which is more important? To stop the cruelty there and then, or to let that person exercise choice and hope for more long-term change?
howard comments ...
Sorry mark but if a bomb was about to go off in a car park ,we would all run keep the faith. x
Paula comments ...
Well, I reckon there´s knowing and there´s knowing; one thing is knowing it intellectually, another is knowing it at a feeling level. Maybe to really care enough about it one has to actually feel the pain of the world and because that is such an overwhelming experience most people protect themselves by creating some sort of emotional barrier. They are numb to it because feeling the pain would simply be too much to cope with.
Are you familiar with Joanna Macy's work? I find it quite inspiring. Just in case you haven't seen it yet...
http://vimeo.com/3351448
Gillian comments ...
Like some of the others, I think the only way you can deal with such things is with compassion and acceptance. You just can't change the way other people feel - only they can do that. Selfishness and apathy among other negative traits are part of the human condition and are, for whatever reason, part of creation, part of Gaia, part of this universe. All we can hope is that more and more people begin to rise above them - and I really believe we are seeing this at the ground level.
God [Gaia] grant me the Serenity to accept the things I Cannot change... Courage to change the things I can And Wisdom to know the difference
Love
Chrisandrea comments ...
He may not care for himself but does he have someone he cares about?
jonas comments ...
well, i agree as well to the points here. I myself feel that its a process step by step to learn the information i need, then when i feel ready i'll take a bigger jump.
One thing i have noticed is that, since we lost tv reception in our new rented house and have spent 6 months not watching tv, you feel a lot more when you do see nature / people that are hurting and you will probably do more.
It was kind of hard but once you got "off" the tv, you tend to enjoy life / nature a lot better. :)
Shannon Rose comments ...
I would LOVE to have an answer to this also. I have come across this comment more times than I'd like to remember and it makes me sad. It's frustrating to me, to think people just plain do NOT care.
Peace,
Shan
Josh comments ...
I would ask them why they feel this way. Assuming that they say, "Because it's too far away" I would go on to ask if it would affect them more deeply if these troubles were occurring in their community. If they say yes, I would remind them that thinking that we live in anything but a global community at this point is really quite foolish (insert rant concerning modern slavery, effects of buying anything from a large corporation, where tax money goes to, etc.). If that doesn't change his or her mind, then I would simply leave it at that. Either he or she will eventually figure things out, or he or she will not. Some people have simply spent their entire lives caring about nothing more than themselves and their own prosperity. Such people are unlikely to change this far into the game.
Vegan gal comments ...
This is a response I frequently get when doing vegan outreach. I have struggled with it as well.
After much discussion and thought, I have arrived at the conclusion that it's not that these people don't care, but that they won't allow themselves to care. They are too overwhelmed with everything else going on in their lives (daily stresses, health, financial, whatever) to add one more thing to the pile. In addition (or alternately), they feel that nothing they do will make a difference.
Perhaps one way to respond would be to say, "I used to feel that these problems were insurmountable, and as a result I also didn't care enough to do anything about it. However, I have now seen the impact a single person can make, and I feel that given the ethic of reciprocity that I live by, it would be wrong to not take action."
Yvonne comments ...
First of all THANK YOU for this site and blog! And I salute your way of living!
In whatever way we are awakening to in this old play of ours we all feel this frustration.. but I have found that everything is about energy.. and from this understanding I have asked myself.. "Do I really want to add to the frustration in the world?"
The answer to this question is NO I don't!
We all are connected and everyOne who awake, in whatever way it is, add to the grand change we now live. This change, in my understading and feeling, comes from within and not in the old way where we spoke in the way that "I have the answer listen to me." We have already done this and also experienced that it didn't work. To me it's more obvious every day that so much is happening on the positive side that is not shown and shared in the media.. but IT IS HAPPENING!
Since we are connected as in All for One and One for All.. this "voice" will be louder and overtake the noise many still listen to.. to me this old voice is coming from fear and all the expressions there is in this energy.. and the growing voice comes from love and respect for our Earth and all of us living here.
So much to open up to and learn and I am optimistic that IT IS happening right now.. and we all have different parts to play in this change of ours.. and we are needed..
I am sure that you planted a seed in this guy and this seed will start to grow.. but maybe you're not around to see it.. and it really doesn't matter because you made a different in his understanding!
Blessings in Love
comments ...
I'm not sure...
I'd maybe try question why that was-why he felt that way, and the answer(s) to that question generate reason why we all should care?
or would sound as well as feel really suprised - really? you don't care that......?
and would also slip in how its easy to do just little stuff to help- things that are so easy to do, and that if everyone just did a little, that would help a lot.....
(and of course if everyone does a lot, even better:)
there could be a number of reason why he felt like that maybe he's come from a background of friends where its strangely considered cool not to care about this type of things, or.....?
CT comments ...
Is there really any response required? Maybe you could just try acceptance.
For hundreds and thousands of years, human kind has been trading. Locally, nationally and globally. Some men kept chickens and exchanged eggs with other men down the road who grew wheat. The wheat growers aren't very good builders so they baked some bread and gave it to some nice men who helped build them a nice new barn...
I'm guessing you'd be happy with that? Well, just take it a little further and one of these men is adventurous enough to build a boat and trade with a man who grows some tea that tastes nice dissolved in hot water.
Of course, some men dispense with much or all of the trading aspect and just take what they want. Oops.
Now, my guess is that the root of the problem that you see isn't the madness of importing tea from India or using a product manufactured in china. Again, I'm just guessing, but if a few sailing ships brought a couple of boxes of tea up the thames every now and again you wouldn't be so concerned?
Well, unfortunately, there are now millions of people in London who'd like a cup of tea. There are even more millions of people in India who are willing to produce that tea. There's no sense in getting all aerated because you perceive that the millions more people in India get a raw deal.
The real root of the problem is world mass over population. One solution to this problem is indeed to eat locally sourced nettles. After a few decades like this, the world population would soon start to decline.
Personally, I think there are more desirable and efficient ways of improving on our current situation than drinking nettle tea and running a lap top from solar power.
Sylvie comments ...
If a bomb drops in the carpark and i'm a baby i'm going to burn. You can't expect people to be able to do things they haven't learnd yet. We live in an antisocial society, where caring isn't valued. If a man rapes a woman in front of 100 people non of them might do anything about it. Reality.
Show him the nice things about your lifestile. Don't lecture, preach, tell him off or make him feel bad. Tell him about the freeshop on stokescroft and how long it takes you to walk from Filton to Long Ashton. He might find some of it fascinating and appealing. Luxury, comfort and convinience is all people want. They think it's their innate rights. It takes time to learn.
Mark comments ...
To Sylvie - continuing the analogy, I think a lot of people are going to get burnt, unless people decide to grow up pretty quick. People must choose how quick they want to grow up. Those that do grow up will even be able to save some babies. The bomb is in the carpark waiting to go off pretty soon. Re: preaching, I wasn't preaching at all, he asked questions, I gave me opinion.
To the commentator with no name, no he didn't buy me dinner, I was making him some on the rocket stove. I am not sure what logic you use when you say 'the fact he listened to you is enough', but I respect your opinion.
Lyssa M comments ...
I think it must be daunting... the idea of changing your entire way of life.... and plus the benifits of his life when combined with all the hassle of changing his ideals ect... maybe to him it's not worth it.... but I bet if you meet him again you'll find he has changed... certainly not completely converted but certainly living a bit more naturally.
Fiona Morris comments ...
Hi Mark
It can be very frustrating that the attitude of not caring is so pervasive in our culture. However, awareness continues to grow and small sparks continue to be ignited which will eventually grow and burn bright.
I think the best response to ignorance is compassion and faith in your own good wishes. People cannot be forced to change but do become inspired by others who walk their talk. Learning to care for ourselves and the environment does not come easy to everyone, but may occur with gentle encouragement, one small step at a time.
Have faith that cultivating your own self respect and awareness will touch the heart of others. The seed of inspiration that you plant in people's hearts may not flourish until days, months, years, or decades later, but eventually it will. Perhaps knowing that and remembering it, will give you the ability to meet such ignorance with confidence and humility.
I am very inspired by your journey. You are an inspiration to many. Those who challenge your ideals are controlled by negative attitudes and bad habits. They are fortunate to encounter you and although you may provoke an uncomfortable reaction in them, you are a valuable catalyst for a deep personal growth in them that may not manifest until some time later.
You have shown them a model of a person who really does care. That is an amazing gift, although they may not appreciate until later down the line.
Wishing you great strength, support and guidance on your travels...
Love, Fiona xo
Helena Mattsson comments ...
We are all in different stages of life and you have made him aware of this and eventually it grows or it doesn´t. You have to let people be where they are. He must feel from his heart to be a belivier if not he can´t change. He didn´t say that he didn´t care jyst don´t enough for the time beeing.
Will comments ...
Sell your friend the lifestyle from the point of view of how it would benefit him personally. No guilt, moral cause, blame, or shame. My failed experience says that the conviction crap turns everyone off. Even if its right :)