Freeconomy Blog
Sun
21 Mar
In Response
| 91 comments |
There is something about a blog that brings out the worst in some people. It's the only communication tool that I've ever used where people attack you personally. Of all the abuse (which is fundamentally different to criticism) I've taken over the last two years, it has never been in person, never by e-mail, never by phone; it has always been in the comments section of a blog (the Guardian for example) . In all of the others forms, people are much more respectful. Maybe it's simply because it's more apparent that you're human.
Some people say that this is acceptable, it's the Internet and so anything goes. This website, however, is the home of this community, and like any home its members should be safe from any abuse or aggressive behaviour. And it is my home too, where once a week I get to converse with all you wonderful people.
Like any home, guests are always welcome to come and say hello. But I expect a certain level of respect from guests. If someone came to my real home, and knocked on the door, looking for directions to say Bristol (a city 18 miles from me), then off course I'd take 10 minutes out to explain to them how to get there.
However, if they ask me how to get to Singapore, overland, from my home, that's a different different story. If I've three hours to spare I'd go on google maps and try to plot out a decent route for them. But if I am already up to my neck in other work I've already given my commitment too, I'll tell the visitor I just don't have the time now to map out such a complicated route, but if they come back in a month I'd be happy to help.
If that person starts getting aggressive because I will not explain the route there and then, I'll ask them to have a little respect, that they're in my home, but reiterate that if they can come back at a time when I can help then I am still happy to. If they keep asking me over and over again, even though I've given my response, I'll ask them to leave, but that the door is always available to be knocked on if they can respect my circumstances. If they come back the next day, knock on the door, I'll answer it, and if they ask respectfully I'll help in whatever way that time allows at that moment. If the same aggressive behaviour continues, I'll close the door, and the next time I see that person knock I'll just ignore it, and I'll keep ignoring it until a time when that person respects that they are a guest in someone else's home.
This online community is that home. It is a place where people can come and converse with those they can't physically meet. Its a place to philosophise, to discuss and refine ideas, which we can then take into our real communities and apply in our own lives. It's not just 'the Internet', a place where anyone can come and be as aggressive as they like.
You have to be a member on most blogs to even comment. If you're trolling or acting aggressively, you get banned. I don't even delete comments on this blog, regardless of how personally abusive they get, let alone ban people. Its incredibly open and accepting of all comments, compared to almost any other credible blog I know. I want this community to be different, a place that welcomes and respects guests, but I also say that if that respect is not reciprocated then the guest who knocks on the door should be ignored until respect for the home is given. I have also always asked people to play the ball and not the player. If you continuously play the player, you get sent off, but no one ever gets sent off for playing the ball.
Whilst I have a rule (like most bloggers do) to not answer the door to trolls, I am also aware that one guest has been knocking on the door every evening for the last few months, and its starting to wind the members of the house up, which isn't helpful to either side.
So I'd like to offer this guest - The Question as (s)he is known - another chance to come inside and have dinner for an evening, where we can discuss things and see if we can actually become friends (friends who may still differ, but still be respectful friends).
So I am proposing this to The Question (even though my diary is telling me that this is the last thing I need!): Leave a comment on this blog asking me anywhere between five and ten questions that you would like answered. I will then respond to these questions as the subject of my next blog as soon as I can (hopefully within a week, but respect I am working 100+ hours at the moment so if it isn't you know why). It will be a blog totally dedicated to answering them. If other members want to respond to his/her questions posed to me, then feel free also as a comment below.
All I ask is two things: once I've answered them, The Question agrees to (from this point onwards) come on here in the spirit of debate, to play the ball and not the player.
My second request is that The Question agrees to answer my five to ten questions which I will send to him/her, and I will then post his/her responses to my questions as the following weeks blog (i.e. two weeks time). All the readers of this blog can then decide for themselves about which makes more sense to them.
If The Question doesn't accept this proposal, or doesn't respond when his/her time to answer questions comes along, or just continues to ask the same questions I've responded to, I'll ask everyone to just ignore the knock on the door until that person either comes respectfully or moves on to the next house (blog, forum).
One last request to The Question - can you at least confirm you are a 'he', so that I can stop having to say things like 'him/her'.
On a slightly different note - can I ask a huge favour of people reading this? Everything regarding the book is going fantastically well now and things are really gathering momentum, but I also really NEED YOUR HELP. It would be really appreciated.
Could you approach your local bookstore / library and ask them to get the book in? This way, those who can't afford to buy it can read it for free from the latter, and those who can and want to donate to the Land Trust Fund where all my proceeds are going can buy it from their local bookstore. It will also help the book to reach so many more people in your local area, meaning you'll start getting lots more members around where you live.
For the moment, if you are in the UK or US, you can bring the following details to your bookshop or library:
Title: The Moneyless Man
Publisher: Oneworld
Author: Mark Boyle
website: http://www.oneworld-publications.com/
ISBN: 978-1-85168-754-1
If you live in any other country, ask them to e-mail me on mark@justfortheloveofit.org. No matter what country you live in, you'll obviously still be able to order the book online.
A few commentators have also questioned my integrity over selling the book. All I ask is for people to question my logic, but not my integrity. I could easily stop living without money now, sell the book and then buy a hut and some land in Jamaica and live out my days having a damn good time. But I am 100% committed to creating the first home for members of this community around the world, and hopefully many more homes if the first experiment thrives. I also ask you to respect that there is lots of information you're not aware of that have lead me to take this option. Life is never black and white, and there are so many things to consider when you try to make the decision you feel can best help the world. Off the top of my head, here is some of the reasons I decided to go with a mainstream publisher instead of self-publishing and putting in online for free.
1. My publishers have a fantastic team of people, and both my editor and copy-editor have thought me so much about how to communicate with the wider audience that many in the green / alternative movement complain about not being able to reach.
2. My publishers have got fantastic relationships with all the booksellers that 98% of the population get their books from, meaning Freeconomy will go out to a much much wider audience than if I published myself online.
3. The book will be translated now into many languages around the world, so that not only English speaking people can read it. This would have been almost impossible for me to do if I hadn't gone with an agent (and therefore a publisher).
4. I now get my own dedicated publicist in every country the book is published in, meaning thousands of opportunities to get Freeconomy out to more and more people around the world through the media in those countries.
5. The proceeds are going to go to create a piece of land where any member can then come and stay for an agreed period of time - completely for free.
6. If you have written a book that sells very well, it is much easier to get columns and articles printed in press around the world, and radio and TV are much more interested. This is the strategy I have chosen up to now and want to intensify, and it is the reason why Freeconomy is now in 129 countries around the world. I want to make it available to as many people as I can.
7. If you self publish, then you reach a select few, those already aware of it. If you can get a publisher with a lot of backing behind them involved, you reach those that otherwise would never have heard about it.
8. Because of the advice my copy-editor, editor, agent and proofreader have been giving me, the book is in much better shape then when I started it, meaning it is a much better representation of Freeconomy.
9. I hate the thought of people only being able to read the book in front of a screen. I want people to be able to lie in a field in the sun and read it. Of course they could print it off, but that would be more energy inefficient and cost roughly the same anyway, given the levels of ink involved.
I know it is a compromise. I know selling the book means I am not living the ideal 100%, but you can't seriously think I have spent many hours considering everything regarding this. I wasn't born into an ideal world - the question really is, do I work with it or against it?
But if I lived my ideal I wouldn't even be communicating to you now via a laptop; I'd be probably be outside enjoying the sun with my friends. Truth isn't always about staying rigid to your ideals every single moment - it is about acting with love and doing what is necessary to help people in whatever way they want or need it, if they do. If you decided your ideal was to never swim in a polluted river again, but one day you seen somebody drowning in such a river and screaming for help, would you stay true to your ideals or would you jump in and get them out.
One last request for help - if you're on Facebook, PLEASE forward the link to the 'The Moneyless Man' page to all your friends, and post it on your wall. You can go to it here.
Great to be sharing the planet with you all, and I look forward to answering The Question's questions and to his/her response to mine over the next two blogs, and then a really respectful atmosphere from both sides, I hope, from that point on. Much love.
THE FREECONOMY BLOG is written by Mark Boyle, who has been living for 16 months without money, and is the founder of the Freeconomy Community.
Comment on this Post:
hollie comments ...
better to use the system than struggle against it.
completely understand the logic behind getting a publisher, after all money didnt appear overnight so we cant expect it to disappear just as quickly.
im looking forward to the next blog hopefully we'll all get the answers were after!
Alf comments ...
Hi Mark. I think the way you've been handling criticisms and questions has been very good. I think your recent blog was an inspired move. Good on you, and thanks for taking the time to go through all these issues for everyone concerned.
It will be interesting to see how things develop from here.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Alf - thanks bro, your recent emails really made me think and I didn't feel I was acting in the way that I knew would be more positive. So thank you for your honesty and wisdom.
@ Trish and Hollie - thanks! Not sure you'll get all the answers you're after, but I'll give me perspective anyway. My answers will have to be fairly brief, otherwise you're looking at a 5,000 word blog and no one has the time for that! I wish people could wait to read the book as I just don't have the time to answer every single question and mail, but hey ho!
Trish Young comments ...
Hey Mark,
Looking forward to book - any questions I have will wait !
Cheese comments ...
Maybe you should put a picture of yourself just above this box with the words "talk to me", maybe that will stop some trolls!
Offer still stands Mark, any help you need i'll be there like a shot.
Digitales comments ...
Hi mark!
It never seizes to surprise me how much crap we take in daily, from politicians, institutions, organisations and just about everything to do with our everyday life, and yet we are so critical of people like you who bravely choose to show an alternative. In my opinion you're absolutely right in publishing your book as you do, and Respect for the way you will utilize the proceedings.
Digitales comments ...
Hi mark!
It never seizes to surprise me how much crap we take in daily, from politicians, institutions, organisations and just about everything to do with our everyday life, and yet we are so critical of people like you who bravely choose to show an alternative. In my opinion you're absolutely right in publishing your book as you do, and Respect for the way you will utilize the proceedings.
Oroboros comments ...
I'd like to suggest #10 for your list:
Most people still value something that they pay for more than something they are given for free. The book may often be read more seriously if the person has made some investment of their own into obtaining it.
Des Troy comments ...
Between the devil and the deep blue sea...
At first, Mugabe was lauded as a saviour. Then absolute power did what it is accused of doing.
Of course, I am not suggesting that you have absolute power Mark but it is always useful to have a Fool poking fun at you. You are between a rock and a hard place, as they say, and I have great sympathy for your plight. Given a choice, I will take my chance with your vision rather than continue along a road of destruction.
You can only make a choice between the lesser of two evils and that choice will bring you many enemies. Take what you want but pay the price. It was ever thus.
Sandie Roach comments ...
I've put in a request to my local library in Perth, WA to purchase a copy of 'The Moneyless Man', when released.
Is there anything else that we can do to promote your book, over here, in Western Australia; aside from the sharing of links on facebook, twitter etc.?
There are now five other members of the freeconomy within ten miles of us. I have made contact with one member. I have a feeling that the book and the freeconomy is going to be massive Mark.......
Cath comments ...
I've been reading this blog for a while, mostly because I actually don't agree with a great deal of what Mark thinks - I am extremely glad to live in a world with medicines, division of labour, and emancipation from physical drudgery for women, most of which I see as products of modernity and capitalism. I accept there are major problems with the status quo, but I don't think that justifies ripping it up and starting again, as seems to be the intention in the moneyless community.
Anyway, I'm now posting for the first time to say that I think that the way all of you have responded to The Question has been shameful. The points being made are not trolling, and @mark's sarky first reply (cheered on by other forum members) was totally unneccessary. I also found the quasi-religious responses of some of the community members a bit sycophantic - "The explanation cannot be given in words alone" etc.
Sure, this website is your home for now, and you can alienate those who don't agree with you until they go away if you choose, and I agree that much online comment is vicious and personal when that's inappropriate. I don't think that has been true of The Question's, however, and I would say it has been truer of the responses.
Also, you are evangelists - you want to spread the word. I will look forward to seeing the reception Mark's book gets - if people disagree, will you just say they're missing the point?
I personally wouldn't blame The Question if she/he doesn't take up Mark's invitation - they will have no good reason to expect a better response than has already been recieved in the comments. I personally don't plan to engage in any rows online about this, I just wanted to post in support of The Question, and the fairly sensible questions he or she is asking.
Cath comments ...
Also, as an afterthought, has anyone on this site read Free: Adventures on the Margins of a Wateful Society by Katharine Hibbert? By a squatter and scavenger, who lives with only a tiny bit of money. I just finished it (was reading it for the same reasons as reading this site, because I don't agree with everything the author said, but wanted to refine my own opinions by engaging with others). I found it really interesting, and quite inspiring in many ways. It does mention your project too, @Mark. I'd be interested to hear what anyone here who has read it thought - perhaps even worth a blog post, @Mark, to set out how you disagree with that book?
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Sandie Roach - thanks for this, huge help and much appreciated!
@ Cath - Sorry to hear that you didn't feel I handled The Questions questions well. My current blog post is a peace offering in a way. I hope he/she accepts it. I'd also like to hear your opinion of how you see us tackling the challenges facing humanity right now, as you've said the status quo has major problems. What is your alternative? How do you feel we can tackle environmental destruction, soil erosion, peak oil, factory farming, sweatshop labour, wars over resources etc? Thanks Cath.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Cath - also would be interested to know how you feel capitalism can continue indefinitely (as that is the system you said you were glad of the benefits of), given that it basically requires 4% GDP year-on-year - therefore infinite growth on a finite planet. I'm genuinely not having a go, so please don't take it as such, but I think this strikes at the core of the disagreements with The Question and possibly yourself. There seems to be an understanding that the status quo can continue, which most people on here will disagree with, as will all ecologist.
Cath comments ...
Hi Mark
Thanks for a civil response. I agree that we can't carry on with "environmental destruction, soil erosion, peak oil, factory farming, sweatshop labour, wars over resources", and that by definition a system that "requires 4% GDP year-on-year - therefore infinite growth on a finite planet" isn't sustainable. But I don't think those problems are inherent in a system that involves money - as so many people have said on here, it's just a tool. I am interested in ideas about economics without growth, and about making more sensible use of the resources we still have. I just don't want to see the clock turned back on the aspects of modernity that I think are valuable - laptops and blogs, to take a trivial example, which I see as more than just a tool for transition!
It's likely that we just have fundamentally different viewpoints, but I suppose the difference between us is that I think that's fine - I'm glad you're living as you do, whereas I don't imagine that you can accept my lway of life as a viable alternative. I do see that, given your agenda, you feel the need to convert us all to moneyless living, but I'm afraid that isn't a conversion I am ever going to accept.
Again, I would be interested to hear your take on the book I mentioned - it seems to be a quite different approach to living without money than yours, and I wonder how much of it you agree with. I dare say it's in the libraries.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Hi Cath,
You quoted me "The explanation cannot be given in words alone" as being kind of religious or something. I think you misunderstood me. This is the limitation of words. You cannot experience something just from words. You can read a book on sailing but it's different when you then put to sea. You can listen to a lecture on biology, but that is not the same as looking down the microscope. And it is the same with trying to make the world a decent place for everyone, not just those with incomes. We are sailing in uncharted waters and might reach our destination with help. I am sort of half way between you and Mark on money. Like you I see the value of it. Like Mark I see the destructiveness of it. So what are we to do? If we do nothing, that will not stop others from doing something. It is those who are active that shape the future, those who are inactive who have it shaped for them by others, for good or for ill.
Respect,
Bob
***
PS. I wonder if The Question also has another identity here?
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Cath: I really appreciate that you want a better world for all too, and that you'll never want to go the moneyless route. That's fine. This isn't something forced on anyone, its just an option for whoever wants to join. If I wanted to enforce it on people, I'd go into politics.
I think you make a huge - and false assumption - though that I feel the need to 'convert' everyone to moneyless living. I have no such need. I am simply living the life I feel is gentlest on the planet and all that live on it, and one that sees the deeper benefits that come from not using money. I think the pros outweigh the cons, that is why I do it.
I think saying things like "I'm glad you're living as you do, whereas I don't imagine that you can accept my way of life as a viable alternative" is a huge over-simplification. To start with, I know nothing of your way of life, you haven't put it out there to be examined. But also, if my way of life involved raping women and beating up old men, would you still be glad to accept it? Extreme you might think, but modern capitalism (and therefore most peoples lifestyles within it) is raping the planet, and wiping many species (to take just one small example) of the face of it. Such acts - environmental destruction, war, sweatshops, human abuse, animal abuse - probably shouldn't be accepted, whereas one idiot who lives under a tree probably isn't that unacceptable, in my eyes at least. I'm not saying you're complicit in destroying the planet at all, I've no idea if you are or not, but its important to point that out, your statement sounds nice but doesn't actually hold up in other contexts.
I also feel you need to accept that there may be perspectives around money that you haven't consider yet. These are throughout the book but chapter 1 is specifically on it. I think after you read it (if you do) then you may have a slightly different perspective - it simply isn't just a tool that can be used for constructive purposes, it has some far reaching repercussions that are inevitable. As I say, there's 15,000 words on these at the start of the book.
If I get a chance to read that book I will, but slightly short on time at the mo to say the least.
Also, if you would like to outline your solutions to all the issues stated earlier, I'd love to hear it and if you wanted to write a blog about it I'd consider publishing it.
Thanks Cath
@ Robert Howes - Robert you are a perfect example of how to be critical but also friendly. I really appreciate your contributions to the debate and what you stand for, even if I don't fully agree with you either.
As I always say, I am not adverse to criticism in the slightest (most of you have no idea how much I receive!), I just don't respond to aggressiveness, as I believe it just reinforces it.
Thanks Bob.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Hi Mark,
I'd like to say that as my own plans are put into operation there will be more and more land that people can live on in caravans etc in a sort of vertical integration if that's the right terminology. Though my generation and even yours might not see a moneyless world, we might see a world in which half the world population live moneyless and free (as it were), and the other half, like Cath, chooses the money route and even supplies hard drives and other highly technical goodies to the moneyless crowd, in exchange for food and fuel perhaps. This could be a very nice balance. What do you and what does Cath think, I wonder. Good compromise?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Robert - If I had to chose between your vision (which I admit I am by no means fully clear about yet, through my own fault) and what we have now, I'd be with you in a second Bob.
I think in your compromise scenario though is a hint of where we aren't in full agreeance. I am all for compromise if I feel it will work and is a good half way house, I am just unsure how that would work. If half the world went moneyless, there is no way the moneyed half could continue to benefit from the economies of scale (which lead to the ecologies-of-industrialisation) that enable the lifestyles we have today.
I also have no desires (and this is where we may differ again, as I know this is where it differs from the Venus project etc) for the technical goodies that such a world could supply. First, I have these goodies and all I really desire is to get rid of them so I can spend much craved time with my friends and my family (and would love to not use this thing I type on anymore), with nature, time for walks and swims and sleeping under the stars. But that's just my ideal, I accept others desire gadgetry. But also, you cannot have the all this gadgetry we use and a healthy biosphere, there is a choice involved. This computer needs a huge global instrastructure (it needs factories, and cars to enable people to get to those factories, and everything else that is required to bring just one microchip into existence.), and that infrastrusture is deeply destructive on so many levels.
I just don't feel we can have both industrialisation and true sustainability. We have a choice to make.
My goal is not to change the world to moneyless living. My goal is to show a model of living, in action and thriving, that is irresistible to people who've had enough of this current political and economic model. Those who want it will have a huge resource to draw upon, those who don't can continue living the way they do.
Forest fires often start from just one spark - ask Rosa Parks. I think it would be good to meet one day Bob, and am happy to at first opportunity for me.
Much respect and love.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Mark,
We met all too briefly, how long ago was it? Over a year ago anyway, and my ideas in their totality take some swallowing, but I think you would find my scenario much more to your liking than you now realise. I have to try to find a balance between those who want technical advance and those who don't. And it's not even that simple as there are many who like to live in both camps. I cannot find the words to describe my vision, you would have to see it, to live it, to be part of it. You and I are only two out of six or seven billion, that has another two billion to add yet before any chance of a stable or falling world population, but with the right ideas all those people could be healing our one and only planet rather than unwittingly helping to damage it. Governments need our help right now, and funnily enough the Irish government is involved in a competition with two prizes of 100,000 euros each and 500,000 euros development money for the best two ideas of how to save Ireland. I will of course be entering. There is still more than a month to go. More than 3,000 ideas have been entered so far, and some of them are good. I'll need my wits about me to win or even to get in the last 20 and last 5. You could enter your ideas. The Venus Project is doing best on public votes, but that won'tt count in the end. The judges will be selected soon and it will be their job to select the winners. I've not written anything yet but I've got it in my head. If it comes to anything we might see Ireland lead the world not just out of recession but into a different paradigm in which money really becomes just a tool that we can use like any other. Here's a link: http://proposals.yourcountryyourcall.com/ct/ct_list.bix?c=D284E307-BEF9-4396-AF6E-14009EAB8647
Check it out.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Cath comments ...
Hi Mark
Again, thanks for response.
"Also, if you would like to outline your solutions to all the issues stated earlier, I'd love to hear it and if you wanted to write a blog about it I'd consider publishing it. "
I'm not in a position to do this at the moment - I'm reading blogs like yours, as well as books like Hibbert's, Bill McKibben's Deep Economy and Tim Jackson's Prosperity Without Growth as I try to find an answer that makes sense to me.
While I appreciate your invitation to put my point of view accross, I think it's perhaps a bit pointless for me to do so when a lot of others have written really interesting books that overlap to quite a large extent with your theme, and with questions about how we should all live together on a finite planet - I would prefer you to read them when you have time, since those authors have reached far more considered positions than I have yet achieved. And if you don't have time to read some really good books about it, you certainly shouldn't have time for me!
Still, respect for trying to find your own way, and good luck with your book and your plans to set up a community.
C
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Des Troy - thanks my good man, wise words as always. I should clarify though that I don't feel I see my situation as a plight (!), I've never been happier, I just want everyone to respect each other on here!
@ Digitales - thanks for that, much appreciated. At the same time, the people of the UK are spending one eight of their hard earned cash in Tesco, a company with one of the worst environmental records you could imagine, and who treats their farmers with absolute disrespect.
Kelly comments ...
Great post, hope the air can be cleared a little now ;)
I have to admit to finding the internet and blogging in particular, very exasperating when trying to communicate.
People really do seem to think that the illusion of anonymity means they can say what ever the hell they like.
The trouble is, for every person who finds the medium great for overcoming shyness (I can talk extensively here but would sit at the back of a meeting and keep quiet if I didn't know anyone) there are countless more who use it for negative purposes.
My theory is that comments on blogs bring out people real traits. So its handy to "see" how people really are lol.
The trouble with banning people from forums and blogs is that they immediately leap on it and say your are "banning free expression" and have closed yourself to debate. But when blogs like these are meant to be positive places (and positive places CAN inspire intelligent debate) its hard to stay in the spirit of the posts when thy are yet again hijacked.
The thing is you can come here and say you don't fully understand, you can ask questions, you can raise valid points, but to KEEP coming back and stamping your lil' virtual foot and whining that no-one is listening to you...well...you have to ask would we put up with it in "real life"?
Hopefully questions will be asked and answered and there will be an understanding or a parting of ways.
"The Question" is a troll not a debator.
he/she/it is like the troll who joins a vegan forum to tell everyone their bones will melt and they'll die through lack of protein. or the troll who joins a religious forum to tell everyone they are idiots, or who joins an anorexic forum to tell everyone they are fat and should get over it.
Real and valid debate gets lost in this as everyone ends up bickering.
May I make the suggestion that if trolls invade and pull a topic off track then we should ignore and carry on?
@Mark. Emailing my library now! :)
Ana comments ...
IMO I haven't seen anybody in this blog disrespecting anyone, apart to disagree with the discussion, and absolutely I haven't seen no reason to ban anybody. In fact those people make the blog more interesting. Don't forget that it was Mark the one who first encourage people who doesn't belong to the community to post, unless now he has decided to preach to the converts?
I haven't realised this is only a vegan blog either, as far as I know is a freeconomy/moneyless community and independently of other people lifestyles, perhaps Mark could have been more specific in that matter so non to mislead people.?
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Ana - Yes and I am still encouraging people to comment, in fact I am giving one of my bigger critics a chance to have his/her say with their own guest blog.
And no this isn't a vegan blog post, I've no idea where you got that from. From time to time I discuss philosophy around animals, as I do all parts of life, and I express my views and invite debate and non-aggressive criticism. I find you regularly put words in my mouth, which I'd like to ask you not to do from now on, you say things that makes it sound like it comes from me. Please be explicit that you are expressing your opinion (which you did regarding a part of your comment, but not the rest) and not mine. I must be honest, you do this a lot, and it is a bit frustrating.
By the way, are you Ana who done the filming for Freeconomy Freastival?
Kelly comments ...
@Ana you maybe didn't read all my post...
"he/she/it is like the troll who joins a vegan forum to tell everyone their bones will melt and they'll die through lack of protein. or the troll who joins a religious forum to tell everyone they are idiots, or who joins an anorexic forum to tell everyone they are fat and should get over it."
I didn't say THIS was a vegan blog, just used it as one of three examples to make my point .
Ana comments ...
This is true I was just responding to Kelly missreading post, sorry my fault. But for the number of posts about veganism I was just wondering ... so perhaps I wasn't so vias. Anyway thanks for clarifying is not only a vegan blog.
Now please can you point exactly where else I've been putting words in your mouth according to you?
And no to the last question.
Ana comments ...
Another thing, if someone post some text in "your name" that doesn't accord with your ideals, if you don't bother to correct it, can be very confusing.
Kelly comments ...
@Ana I don't think its fair to say there are a lot of vegan posts here. The main one I found was the dairy/feminism one. You will find though that the nature of this blog is one in which the least destructive path is taken (in therms of ethics and enviromental impact).
But in all honesty I think Mark has mentioned his caravan more often than veganism, but no one has said that this is a caravaning blog ;)
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Ana - thanks, I appreciate that. I don't have time to scan every previous blog let alone email, but if I feel you unintentionally do it in the future I'll let you know. I genuinely don't think you mean to do it, but sometimes comes across as very confusing, could also be a language thing. Thanks Ana.
comments ...
Mark, you just have put words in my mouth, but never mind. You welcome : )
Kelly; the least damaging path ecologically I would think it is the hunters/gatherers', with agriculture started the whole problem (or probably were more the greed behind it).
Kelly comments ...
@Ana I agree that the hunter/gatherer life is the most ecologically sound, but with the huge populations and built up areas it is no longer a mass populous viable one. It would be lovely to turn back the clock in some ways, but I don't fancy walking in a park where untrained idiots decide to try and shoot squirels for dinner *heehee*
The best we can do in that vein is to gather wild food that dosn't need shooting.
Personally I am waiting for the nettles to come up ...Mmmm..nettle soup, nettle pesto, nettle tea....*drool*
hollie comments ...
@ kelly- im looking forward to the nettle soup too! never tried nettle pesto i think ill have to try that one this year.
also waiting on the dandelions coming up so i can replenish my oils im almost out of my dandelion flower oil.
Kelly comments ...
@Hollie Oooh yeah ..dandelion leaves!! taste like posh rocket! Going to try and be good this year and dry stuff to put away for teas :)
Trish Young comments ...
@Kellly and @Hollie
Inspiration and great reminders on the plants, thank you !!
:-)
Mike Wilcox comments ...
It's been my experience anyone who rocks the boat is going to get negative feedback, let's face it most people have a vested interest in maintaining things the way they are. Change frightens these people and they lash out at anyone who steps over their personal line in the sand.
In many cases it's not possible to answer their criticism because they refuse to have a discussion about it without throwing tired old sound bite labels about. All you can really do is lead by example, those that have their own personal epiphany will follow, the rest will act like blind men arguing about what an elephant looks like.
Ana comments ...
I do get some berries for the wild myself, specially when our allotment berries are not enough to stretch my winter jam supply and some elderberries to make syrup for colds and flu. Talking about allotments; the actual allotment size was never meant to be for veggies, at least you'll need a double of that size to have a continual supply of fruit/vegetables. Anecdotally as veggies, I've noticed we tend to eat bigger amounts of food and eat more often than meat eaters, don't forget the extra visit time to the toilet night and day (my children comments about school and upset them that sometimes they are not allow to leave the lessons).
And again, I hate to get controversial :D :D, we facing the same problems when we encourage more and more people serving themselves from "the marginal wild" to the point of competing with others and wild animals maybe forcing them to get reduce in numbers, how do we know doing that we are not breaking further the ecological balance?? i.e I know that in the Alps in Italy people are not allow to pick anything herbs, wild berries, medicinal plants, fungus, etc but only allow only a selection of them for instant consumption, otherwise the devastation from local and tourists will be enormous. When we're talking about big number of people doing the same thing(more people not eating meat, more land for agriculture, more hunting/gathering/fishing etc) we have to think of the impact it's going to have on the whole and on the long run. Remember that even traditional hunter/gatherers are very territorial and many live in continual rivalries/fights against their closer neighbours, and some of them live in continual fear. The ideal would be a variety of living ways or a combination of them and don't forget the travellers/nomads they can be as ecological and self-sufficient or a combination of the different living ways.
Kelly comments ...
@Ana This was my point. The hunter/gatherer style of living is no longer a viable option. Also re: allotments, my Grandad had a council allotment for about 40 years and he grew ALL (and I mean all) the vegetables for a family of 9 on it. Yes they ate a lot of cabbage and potatos!! lol.
Maybe it feels like its not possible because we expect too much from it? We want to be able to eat the huge variety of vegetables and salad that we are used to buying in the shops and of course an allotment sized plot can't do that.
Also, if its not too personal, why do your children need the loo so much???
I don't find we as a vegan family go to the loo anymore than my meat eating relatives, and we don't tend to eat more either.
And on another note if your children are not being allowed out of class to use the toilet you should complain to the school, that's taking away a basic right!!
trish Young comments ...
Some time ago I came across a really quite small plot which had been carefully planted so as to be drought proof and which was said to feed a family of 4 all year round. Actually, it was one of the things which inspired me to want to live in an entirely different way, that and the earthship nearby.
This is constructive blogging !:-)
Gary (Bayonne France) comments ...
@Hollie, Ana,Trisha
Nettle soups and all that, could you tell me how to make that? And dandelion oils is that for cooking? I would like to try this stuff out.
Can you help or point me in the direction of where I can find out this sort of info.
p,s Here's living proof of how the Free economy sharing thing works. Or it will be if the girls get back to me.
Trish Young comments ...
@Gary
Here is a good site:
http://www.wildmanwildfood.com/pages/recipes.htm
and it has links to other sites too.
The others you asked all know much more than I do, Kelly and Sandie as well.
:-)
Kelly comments ...
@Gary You can use nettles the same way you would use spinach or kale. Once it is cooked it no longer stings ;)
Get yourself some thick gloves and a bag and pick enough to fill it.
wash them well.
Brown some onion and garlic in a little oil, add some potato and maybe other veg if you like, then add the nettles. cover with hot stock and cook!
Blend if you like and its ready to eat!
You can make the soup out of just nettles and a little onion if you like, but its strong although you can mix a little cream or milk in as well.
I personally like to use a mix of veg for optimum vitamins!
You can also steam it and eat it as a side dish, or put it in flans and quiche. In fact any recipe that uses spinach is good for nettles...so long as its cooked first!! lol
hollie comments ...
dandelion flower oil, i use it instead of bubble bath.
i gather as many flower heads ( shake them off to get the bugs out ) as i can and steep them in a bottle (or jar) of olive oil for a few weeks in a warm-ish spot like a window ledge and give it a shake every now and then. the oil will get a yellowish tint from the dandelion pollen. you can can strain it if you want. i add a teaspoon or two to a bath instead of the usual stuff. it can be used as a massage oil too and is good for aches and pains and discomfort, can be massaged on arthritic joints etc.
now i know you can eat dandelion flowers but ive never tried the oil for cooking, i think this could be a new thing to try!
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
This is the sort of confusion generated by money:
In the 1980s, Milton Friedman, the Nobel Prize-winning economist and father of Monetarism, contended that some of the concerns of trade deficits are unfair criticisms in an attempt to push macroeconomic policies favorable to exporting industries.
Prof. Friedman argued that trade deficits are not necessarily important as high exports raise the value of the currency, reducing aforementioned exports, and vise versa for imports, thus naturally removing trade deficits not due to investment. Milton Friedman's son, David D. Friedman, shares this view and cites the comparative advantage concepts of David Ricardo.[20]
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, the U.S. had experienced high inflation and Friedman's policy positions tended to defend the stronger dollar at that time. He stated his belief that these trade deficits were not necessarily harmful to the economy at the time since the currency comes back to the country (country A sells to country B, country B sells to country C who buys from country A, but the trade deficit only includes A and B). However, it may be in one form or another including the possible tradeoff of foreign control of assets. In his view, the "worst case scenario" of the currency never returning to the country of origin was actually the best possible outcome: the country actually purchased its goods by exchanging them for pieces of cheaply-made paper. As Friedman put it, this would be the same result as if the exporting country burned the dollars it earned, never returning it to market circulation.[21] This position is a more refined version of the theorem first discovered by David Hume.[22] Hume argued that England could not permanently gain from exports, because hoarding gold (i.e., currency) would make gold more plentiful in England; therefore, the prices of English goods would rise, making them less attractive exports and making foreign goods more attractive imports. In this way, countries' trade balances would balance out.[23]
Friedman believed that deficits would be corrected by free markets as floating currency rates rise or fall with time to encourage or discourage imports in favor of the exports, reversing again in favor of imports as the currency gains strength. In the real world, a potential difficulty is that currency markets are far from a free market, with government and central banks being major players, and this is unlikely to change within the foreseeable future. Nevertheless, recent developments have shown that the global economy is undergoing a fundamental shift. For many years the U.S. has borrowed and bought while in general, the rest of the world has lent and sold. However, as Friedman predicted, this paradigm appears to be changing.
As of October 2007, the U.S. dollar weakened against the euro, British pound, and many other currencies. For instance, the euro hit $1.42 in October 2007[24], the strongest it has been since its birth in 1999. Against this backdrop, American exporters are finding quite favorable overseas markets for their products and U.S. consumers are responding to their general housing slowdown by slowing their spending. Furthermore, China, the Middle East, central Europe and Africa are absorbing more of the world's imports which in the end may result in a world economy that is more evenly balanced. All of this could well add up to a major readjustment of the U.S. trade deficit, which as a percentage of GDP, began in 1991.[25]
Friedman and other economists have pointed out that a large trade deficit (importation of goods) signals that the country's currency is strong and desirable. To Friedman, a trade deficit simply meant that consumers had opportunity to purchase and enjoy more goods at lower prices; conversely, a trade surplus implied that a country was exporting goods its own citizens did not get to consume or enjoy, while paying high prices for the goods they actually received.
Friedman contended that the structure of the balance of payments was misleading. In an interview with Charlie Rose, he stated that "on the books" the US is a net borrower of funds, using those funds to pay for goods and services. He essentially claimed that the foreign assets were not carried on the books at their higher, truer value.
Friedman presented his analysis of the balance of trade in Free to Choose, widely considered his most significant popular work.
[edit] Warren Buffett on trade deficits
The successful American businessman and investor Warren Buffett was quoted in the Associated Press (January 20, 2006) as saying "The U.S trade deficit is a bigger threat to the domestic economy than either the federal budget deficit or consumer debt and could lead to political turmoil... Right now, the rest of the world owns $3 trillion more of us than we own of them."
[edit] John Maynard Keynes on the balance of trade
In the last few years of his life, John Maynard Keynes was much preoccupied with the question of balance in international trade. He was the leader of the British delegation to the United Nations Monetary and Financial Conference in 1944 that established the Bretton Woods system of international currency management.
He was the principal author of a proposal—the so-called Keynes Plan—for an International Clearing Union. The two governing principles of the plan were that the problem of settling outstanding balances should be solved by 'creating' additional 'international money', and that debtor and creditor should be treated almost alike as disturbers of equilibrium. In the event, though, the plans were rejected, in part because "American opinion was naturally reluctant to accept the principal of equality of treatment so novel in debtor-creditor relationships". [26]
His view, supported by many economists and commentators at the time, was that creditor nations may be just as responsible as debtor nations for disequilibrium in exchanges and that both should be under an obligation to bring trade back into a state of balance. Failure for them to do so could have serious consequences. In the words of Geoffrey Crowther, then editor of The Economist, "If the economic relationships between nations are not, by one means or another, brought fairly close to balance, then there is no set of financial arrangements that can rescue the world from the impoverishing results of chaos." [27]
These ideas were informed by events prior to the Great Depression when—in the opinion of Keynes and others—international lending, primarily by the United States, exceeded the capacity of sound investment and so got diverted into non-productive and speculative uses, which in turn invited default and a sudden stop to the process of lending. [28]
Influenced by Keynes, economics texts in the immediate post-war period put a significant emphasis on balance in trade. For example, the second edition of the popular introductory textbook, An Outline of Money, [29] devoted the last three of its ten chapters to questions of foreign exchange management and in particular the 'problem of balance'. However, in more recent years, since the end of the Bretton Woods system in 1971, with the increasing influence of Monetarist schools of thought in the 1980s, and particularly in the face of large sustained trade imbalances, these concerns—and particularly concerns about the destabilising affects of large trade surpluses—have largely disappeared from mainstream economics discourse [30] and Keynes' insights have slipped from view [31], they are receiving some attention again in the wake of the Financial crisis of 2007–2010. [32]
[edit] Physical balance of trade
Monetary balance of trade is different from physical balance of trade (which is expressed in amount of raw materials). Developed countries usually import a lot of primary raw materials from developing countries at low prices. Often, these materials are then converted into finished products, and a significant amount of value is added. Although for instance the EU (as well as many other developed countries) has a balanced monetary balance of trade, its physical trade balance (especially with developing countries) is negative, meaning that a lot less material is exported than imported.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Alex Heffron comments ...
Hi Mark
Just come across your website/blog etc. and find it really fascinating and inspiring and I have huge respect for what you are doing.
I was reading on your Guardian blog and you mention "social homeopath" I thought that was a fantastic term (I am a homeopath) and had to laugh when I saw that that comment alone brought lots of debate/criticism. It's incredible how much debate it can rouse in the UK.
If this comment leads to your blog descending into a debate on homeopathy then please feel free to delete as I am sure you have better things to be getting on with.
Best Wishes with your projects
Alex
Gary (Bayonne France) comments ...
@Trish,Kelly,Hollie
Thanks for getting back to me so quick. I cant wait to try the recipes out. On the subject of stinging nettles, a friend of mine here in France once told me that if you stop breathing when you touch a stinging nettle it wont sting you. Of course I thought he was winding me up, so I tried and it works. I held my breath and brushed my hand against the nettle and I didn't get stung. I only tried it once so I am not saying go out and grab a bunch of nettles with no gloves I just thought I'd share that bit of info. Thanks again girls that's made my day.
Ana comments ...
Yes Gary I've heard that saying and it works most all the time, but when you are going to handle a lot of them, I'd recommend the gloves. I've seen Mark picking the nettles with barehands, perhaps it could tell the trick?
jean-michel comments ...
critics, yes it's so easy for them to hide behind their computer, they risk nothing so they let it go, because they are fearful beings! in a fearful world! quite representative of part of the society, no respect for much, starting with their own self :)))
i love your patience and understanding because you should not be spending this time answering or dealing with this kind of abuse! at least that trains you to answer any questions and to become bull(et)shit proof!
i have been living out(ish) of society for a couple of years and the living truth is that we live in society so, to avoid it completely, is impossible and delusional, believe me i've tried :)))
so good luck
your book trying to fund your project to buy some land...well that comes in line with a problem i've been thinking of recently, i realise that i am born in a world where i am denied land, i just cannot go anywhere and build myself a hut! you know, to do the independence thing, so i understand about all the policies, blahblah people would start growing empire state buildings in their garden..hum...i wonder though! So for your critics, what can you do when you have no other choice than to buy or to rent the land? which makes me think once the land bought, are you going to have to pay any yearly taxes on it?
Isn't it shitty that when you are born you realise (after a few years!) that all was sold before! well wasn't stolen in the first place? (example hint: native americans...)
i have a good quote i got from the book 'a short course in intellectual self-defense' and it belongs to Benjamin Franklin: 'no man ought to own more property than needed for his livelihood; the rest by right, belonged to the state' (i assume; he means 'the state' as 'the people' like it should be ;)
greetings from a 'far too long time ago' lost lineage of a french revolutionary 'he'
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
This looks like a good site:
http://www.positivepath.net/ideasMA11.asp
Extract from the above:
Top Ten Things to Think About If You Want to Change the World
By Michael Angier
Mahatma Gandhi believed that we must be the change we want to see in the world. This was well demonstrated when he helped India gain its independence. Gandhi was a revolutionary man, but he accomplished India's emergence as a nation without starting a revolution. In fact, he advocated no violence. One of the most powerful countries in the world yielded to the commitment of one man and the dream of millions.
What change can we effect? What's the difference we want to make in the world?
Gandhi said, "In a gentle way you can shake the world." Here are some things to think about how to do just that …
***
Anyone else know of good sites to visit?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Shaina comments ...
First of all, Mark, I would like to thank you for sharing your vision. I admire your courage to DO, to ACT on your believes. I look forward to reading your book and visiting the community in the future.
Communication in debatform can be very constructive, clearly it moves people.... I don't think I've seen a blog more or as passionatly commented as these last ones in march. That’s positive!
I would like to share some movie titles that I've found, were a must see in my search of 'reality'. Why these titles? They have been important to me, helped me to 'see' the system. (All films can be found on Youtube.)
- The Story of stuff
- A farm for the future = BBC documentary on global farming and food crisis.
- Our daily bread (unser taeglich brot)
(this movie is an invitation directed at our sense of curiosity, our desire to get to the bottom of things, to associate and think about our civilization as it currently stands.)
@ Robert Howes, I enjoyed the link! Nice, clean, confronting ideas and tips
Guy comments ...
Thanks for this discernment and your open invitation
All good for the spirit :)
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Just as a matter of interest, national debt by country. Go to:
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/economics/list-of-national-debt-by-country/
Cheers,
Bob
***
Sandie comments ...
My smile won't sit down;
Face fails furrows or frown.
Freeconomy's emerging,
Like-minds are converging.
Resources and skills;
Freely shared. No more bills!
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Shaina & Bob - great links, seen some of them in the past and will check out the others at first chance.
@ Sandie - what a beautiful poem!
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Most of the things worth doing in the world have been declared impossible before they were attempted.
Earl Nightingale
Cheers,
Bob
***
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do.
Lewis Cass
Cheers,
Bob
***
Herman comments ...
Hey Mark,
hope that you enjoyed earth hour,
me and my fiance had a nice dinner at candle light.
I think that earth hour campaign is making a difference and it does raise awareness, down here in Cape Town. Seems 'leading by example' is working.
Go Planet!
Michael comments ...
Hi Mark,
I write to you from Lima - Peru, and I just wanted to say how much I admire what you're doing. I hope this movement and general awareness that you are creating expands to create a better world... our planet deserves it as well as all the victims of a monetary system which requires the existance of poverty and scarcity for it to work.
I'm with you!
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Bob - great quotes!
@ Herman and Michael - thanks for the support guys, much appreciated, especially at this moment as I have my head buried in very boring legalities and tax law. Oh, the irony of it all...
Michael comments ...
Hi Mark,
I was wondering if you have heard of the Zeitgeist movement and seen the films they've produced? They are working to develop a moneyless economy and replace it with a resource-based economy. Their arguments, movies, university presentations and essays are VERY interesting and informative, they are constantly reaching more people and gaining much support.
I'm sorry if you have already heard about them or been asked the same question, I just discovered your blog last night!
Anyway, here are the links just in case - www.zeitgeistmovie.com
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com
Regards from Peru!
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
I just put the message below on another related site. You can use the link below to see the full debate.
Hi all,
Robin's favourite word, praxis, comes to mind as we all theorise about how it
might be. I think we need to test each theory to see what works best.
***
I tend to do some things that are not the most efficient but are more
satisfying. In theory, and maybe in a future socialism, we will anticipate
labour requirements and create the necessary labour saving devices.
***
After all, this is the nub of the matter, what labour we have to put in to get
all the lemonade we need to quench our thirst as we laze around with nothing to
do but enjoy our freedom.
***
If we could automate and robotise everything so that there was nothing to do but
consume, sleep, procreate and so on, as in the technocracy vision (which I
partially hold to), we could then concentrate on bering better people, being
nice to each other, enjoying life.
***
But who is going to labour to create this world? We are or it won't happen.
Capitalists don't need such a world, they already have (wage) slaves pandering
to their needs. The richer of them can afford personal servants. It is only by
the less rich combining in meaningful ways that we can break this vicious
circle.
***
I have made a start but I am only one person. I need others to join me so that
we can see where this goes in practice, in reality, not just in theory, but
informed by theory modified by reality. But I suppose everyone is too busy to
combine in any other way than the way we are combined at present- through the
market. And time marches on.
Cheers,
Bob
***
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ecaworkinggroup/message/55
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Interesting link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vissarion
Cheers,
Bob
***
Paul comments ...
I admire your patience and democratic spirit, Mark - but if I were in your place I would not give 'The Question' the attention it wants. The Question, like all of its kind, is a coward. I would bet money that it won't respond to your suggestion, because that's not what it's here for. The kind of person who expends that much energy on knocking others down, from behind a mask of anonymity, is not going to have the guts to come out into the light.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
TQ and everyone else,
Please follow the link, see what you think:
http://anthologyoi.com/blogish/beyond-the-socialist-dream-a-money-less-society-part-i.html
Cheers,
Bob
***
comments ...
This whole discussion is ddeply confused and far too entangled with other issues, such as the environment, for example.
Money is not the economy. Wealth is not credit. And so forth; those are things done with money. The economy is a social construct along with how it's managed. That isn't the fault of money.
People are confusing too many things for this to ever be a viable discussion and still resorting to abuse toward anyone who doesn't immediately jump aboard. The fact that money from the sale of a book can be given to charity completely dismantles the idea that money is bad. It is down to how it's managed, and that applies the same for anything whether it's money or apples or coal or wood.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
There is much confusion. I think TQ is confused. I don't think I am confused. I think I see things clearly and hope to help others see clearly in future.
***
Money would not be bad if jobs were plentiful and everyone had all they need to live satisfying lives. But money has become concentrated in the hands of the few and away from the many. We need to reverse that trend.
***
But there are contradictions in the capitalist system that mean we will run up against problems in the future if we insist on putting monetary values on everything. We will not always need money as a way of distrubuting goods.
***
The sooner we start untangling the mess, the better.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Everyone-who-says-that-money-is-not-the-problem-in-itself,-just-how-we-manage-it: If I had a pound for every time I heard this, I certainly wouldn't be living without money.
Of course the notes and coins in themselves do no harm, but this tool has some inherent destructive consequences and it most definitely isn't just a neutral energy.
I outline the reasons why, mainly, in Chapter 1 of the book - one of the many reasons for writing this is to answer this question! Please read this chapter before restating this old assumption.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
@Mark,
As bad as money is we have to deal with it sensibly, not just hope it will go away and leave us alone.
***
I don't want to sound critical, I'll leave that to others, we need to head in the direction of a moneyless world, in that we can both agree, but what is the quickest way to get there?
***
Just as anyone in present circumstances can get rich, but not everyone can, anyone can give up money, but not everyone can.
***
What would happen if everyone gave up money right now? Would the system just carry on the same, or better? Or would there be chaos?
***
Of course, that won't happen. What could happen is that a method is discovered by trial and error that enables large numbers of people to live with less and less money over time until they simply don't need it anymore.
***
In the process the world must get more equally divided so that everyone has the resources they need to live without money.
***
Whether it is one person with three acres of land to grow his/her food and fuel, or one hundred people on three hundred acres or ten thousand on thirty thousand acres doesn't matter. That is the ratio we need and the ratio of land available up to nine billion people. If we go beyond nine billion we'll have less land each.
Cheers,
Bob
***
The Question comments ...
@Mark can you repeat that without recourse to subjective terminology. Money is just a means of transaction. How it's used is the issue. Your own decision to print and publish a book (something that other people have had to invest in and others again will have to pay for) and then give the proceeds to charity proves that. I can't understand this persistent belief that money is intrinsically bad. If we took that attitude to all everythign else we'd starve to death.
Kelly comments ...
@The Question
May I suggest you either read the book or contact Mark privately to discuss these matters.
Maybe without other people butting in you could finally get the answers you want or you can at least decide this is a foolish venture and you want no part of it.
Your constant badgering, on every post, is getting grating and does you no favours.
What you need is you, Mark and a cuppa, if not in person then at least on an IM site like MSM.
The trouble is some of your more genuine questions get lost in the ramble broken record ones.
I for one will be borrowing the book to read before I come back to Mark with my questions, of which I'm sure I will have, on account of not being Ovine.
frantasia comments ...
I agree - money is a means of exchange, how we use it is the issue. A barter system could be used selfishly / ruthlessly or sensibly / respectfully in the same way that money can.
Just consider the Irish story of the Táin Bó Cuailgne (Battle of the Cooley Bull), where envy of a bull led to war.
A more recent account I've read lately has to do with a wedding in an African country, where a young man was all set to marry a woman he loved - the dowry required was 20 cattle, which his father was giving, but 10 cattle were stolen before the wedding and it was cancelled - 5 cattle had to be given in compensation to the girl's family, which left the young man with just 5 cattle.
Friends, this could happen with money, but it can happen with anything.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Money and humans are in a love-hate relationship. Money helps humans get what they need, but it comes between them too. If we can learn to get what we need without money, and I'm sure we can one day, then we can give up this drug. Cold turkey is too sudden for most folks, but we'll get there eventually, if we really want to.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
@Frantasia,
Of course it can happen with cattle or any other private goods. That is the whole point of giving up money and making everything owned in common.
***
It can be that way one day, for the whole world, but right now we need to form groups that can pioneer holding our goods, our wealth in common.
***
Over the centuries, the millenia indeed there have been thinkers putting forward such ideas, but commerce went steaming ahead as though it had all the answers. It didn't. It was unfeeling and left the Devil to take the hindmost.
***
We are now in a position to rethink the whole system, and we are doing so. We are joined together by the internet and by a new appreciation of each others rights to enjoy this planet regardless of colour or race. We now know that we are all related, we all came from Africa, and indeed we are all related through the species.
***
Now we have to decide what to do about it. Most will decide to not change anything. A few will try to change everything. The result might just be an improvement.
***
Those who pretend money is okay are kidding themselves. Those who pretend that no good comes from money are kidding themselves. Money is as money does.
***
As long as it is accepted by the majority, the minority will need to adjust their thinking accordingly and adapt to using money and the whole system in ways that are beneficial, if that is possible.
***
I think it is possible.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Check this out:
http://www.countercurrents.org/steinsvold110708.htm
Cheers,
Bob
***
ed whymandesign.com comments ...
Can we work with you to create your own FREE Trust Library &/or create a open source charity map to share resources for free:) ?
1. Can http://www.TRUSTlibrary.org give away FREE Books with you anywhere & in 50+ uk locations and host your pop up events there with you? Anyone can create their own library for free in minutes!
2. We also need volunteers to manage each shop across the UK and waterproof boxes/shelves & transport to deliver & store the books (please post any ideas/suggestions on the website and join the group https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=348867089849 ).
3. We also are looking to work with programmers to make an open source map mashup that enables anyone to share where free books are too Please contact us at http://www.twitter.com/trustlibrary
4. Can http://www.WEBiversity.org work with you so we can share the best eduction video's for free:)
5. We are using the http://www.Traidmark.org business structure which can help anyone for free.
6. Can http://www.PLAYGROUNDgames.org work with you too! http://www.Whymandesign.com WEBIVERSITY & Traidmark.org = Not / For Profit + Social Enterprise Innovation germinater
We are also looking to work on an open source collaboration charity platform http://pledgie.com/campaigns/7538
jason palmer comments ...
I have seen 2 books in my local library, here in dublin, by people talking about living with no money, one was that karen girl who had an article in the guardian.
btw... ignore the fools, everyone gets the problem, tis the reason many writers can only be contacted via their publisher
Paul Montwill comments ...
I strongly agree with all the reasons behing your strategy with the book. Congratulations! You must be tired of cynics questioning your integrity all the time.
ga67 comments ...
mark
we cant all live in tents and caravans living without the comforts of the modern world and most of us dont want to.I think people would be more inclined to change if the freeconomy could be seen to be working in and for the benefit of
thier local communities.provideing these same comforts and nesessities .
Making the freeconomy a real world entity is a must.So another member and myself are arranging a meeting to look at doing just that.it will take cash ,we have to buy
our way out of the system whether we like it or not
the people who think that making money from your book is defeating the object have just not bothered to think hard enough ,the resources of the world have been stolen and as things stand we have to play the game and buy them back.Once they are ours they stay ours and become the common property of everybody
As you say not everything is black and white.
its a lifestyle not a hobby
keep it up mate
gary
bagonhand comments ...
During the visit, Gucci bagwomen's handbags has to make you happy
way to travel。At home, Gucci let you enjoy the warmDesigner
Handbags comfortable home wholesale handbags, banquets,
Guccidiscount handbags dress for you, make you a noble character
and focus. Gucci is dressed young woman is essential personal items, LV handbags wholesaler reflectLV handbags wholesaler the star quality, Gucci is a fashion
indicator, is stylish and banquet hall equipped with the necessary conditions. Gucci handbags wholesaler Gucci fashion and luxury is always there,
rich, elegant, charming, sexy and elegant, with richPrada handbags
wholesaler canvas legends and Athens, is a classic.we offer the best quality, reasonable prices, fast
shipping, handling shipping is available, the best and timely service.Welcome to our site selection at
any time, wish you a pleasant online shopping.
NBA jersey seems simple and plain style which doesn’t lose its blaze and flashes with nba Jerseys different
values in different people’s eyes!youth basketball jerseys The Designer of pandora bracelets Changed In
players’eyes,nhl
Jerseys it symbolizes their locations on court and embodies the position of the team; in the
eyes of club bosses, its sale is the source of profits.nba Jerseys In the fan’eyes, sports jerseysit is symbol of their idols. It
is a dream come true to have nfl jerseys
sale the jerseys of their idols;mlb Jerseys And in the eyes of the science and technology workers,nfl Jerseys Wholesale its texture needs to be
revamped, and the styles need to be diversified.Style Provided at Low Price!nfl Jerseys Cheap Get links of london sale
for Nephews!
bagonhand comments ...
During the visit, Gucci bag has to make you happy way to travel。At home, Gucci let you enjoy the warm
comfortable home Balenciaga handbags, banquets, Gucci dress for you, make you a noble character and
focus. Gucci is dressed young woman is essential personal items, reflect the star quality, Gucci is a
fashion indicator, is stylish and banquet hall equipped with the necessary conditions. Gucci fashion and
luxury is always there, rich, elegant, charming, sexy and elegant, with rich canvas legends and Athens,
is a classic.we offer the best quality, reasonable prices, fast shipping, handling shipping is available,
the best and timely service.Welcome to our site selection at any time, wish you a pleasant online
shopping.More info.:http://www.bagonhand.com/
NBA jersey seems simple and plain style which doesn't lose its blaze and flashes with different values in
different people's eyes! The Designer of pandora bracelets Changed In players'eyes,it symbolizes their
locations on court and embodies the position of the team; in the eyes of club bosses, its sale is the
source of profits.nba Jerseys In the fan'eyes, it is symbol of their idols. It is a dream come true to
have the jerseys of their idols; And in the eyes of the science and technology workers,its texture needs
to be revamped, and the styles need to be diversified.Style Provided at Low Price! Get links of london
sale for Nephews!In the street, we see vitality full of youthful spirit and prosperity from a handsome
man in jersey. More info.:
http://www.nfljerseyonline.com/
casino en ligne comments ...
Blizzard warnings were issued in place of parts of Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin as snow socked the states in tandem with hot air gusts topping 45 miles (72 kilometers) per hour.
The rainstorm -- 10 days sooner than the hit of winter -- took its greatest toll in Minnesota, where as much as two feet (61 centimeters) of snow had fallen in some locations, according to the Inhabitant Sickly Appointment (NWS).
The state's largest burg Minneapolis was directed a blanket of off-white 17 inches (43 cm) mysterious, the worst snowfall to hit the new zealand urban area in more than 19 years and the fifth-biggest on record.
As an incriminate in of the simoom's hardness, Minneapolis-St. Paul Ecumenical Airport -- a travel hub with know-how in contending with venal weather -- was shush down in return the gold medal notwithstanding in years.
casino comments ...
Blizzard warnings were issued to go to parts of Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin as snow socked the states in tandem with breeze gusts topping 45 miles (72 kilometers) per hour.
The blizzard -- 10 days anterior to the birth of winter -- took its greatest levy in Minnesota, where as much as two feet (61 centimeters) of snow had fallen in some locations, according to the Inhabitant Sickly Secondment (NWS).
The splendour's largest burg Minneapolis was directed a blanket of bloodless 17 inches (43 cm) mysterious, the worst snowfall to charge the new zealand urban area in more than 19 years and the fifth-biggest on record.
As an with of the simoom's hardness, Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport -- a transit focal point with expertness in contending with foetid seedy -- was shut down for the oldest notwithstanding in years.
online casino comments ...
Ditty of the newest U.S. fa‡ade online casinos to known from the regulatory rule of Curacao (see homepage for the sake validation seal), Posh Vegas as a matter of fact has many years of gaming participation junior to its belt. The Pretentious Vegas Casino directors team has been around since the appear of online gambling, and in adding up to earning a crammed standing with players, has managed some of the most well-fixed online casinos to date.
roulette comments ...
One of the newest U.S. facing online casinos to come up from the regulatory clutches of Curacao (recognize homepage with a view validation seal), Fabulous Vegas in fact has many years of gaming participation junior to its belt. The Grand Vegas Casino government troupe has been around since the emerge of online gambling, and in addition to earning a crammed standing with players, has managed some of the most loaded online casinos to date.
roulette comments ...
Ditty of the newest U.S. overlay online casinos to known from the regulatory authority of Curacao (see homepage for validation seal), Legendary Vegas in fact has uncountable years of gaming participation comprised in its belt. The Grand Vegas Casino directors band has been around since the cock crow of online gambling, and in adding up to earning a sturdy standing with players, has managed some of the most well-fixed online casinos to date.
casino comments ...
Harmonious of the newest U.S. overlay online casinos to come up from the regulatory jurisdiction of Curacao (observe homepage representing validation seal), Posh Vegas as a matter of fact has many years of gaming savvy comprised in its belt. The August Vegas Casino directors troupe has been round since the cock crow of online gambling, and in adding up to earning a sturdy reputation with players, has managed some of the most well-fixed online casinos to date.
